From corporate to independent: HR business partnering

From corporate to independent: HR business partnering with Cindy Hurley Leister

Driving your own career as an HR business partner

I'm excited that you're joining me for an interview with my friend, Cindy Hurley-Leister. Cindy is an independent HR coach and consultant with a lot of experience in HR from large companies and different continents, starting in Germany, moving to the US and coming to us from Australia. Cindy, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Andy. I’m happy to be here.

It is great to have you on. Cindy, I probably did do a good job of introducing you there. I would love to have you share a little bit of your background and how you got to where you are?

I've been a coach and consultant full-time since 2019. That's where I made a tough and bold decision to leave the company that I love. It's a big multinational BASF. I've worked there for many years in different roles, recruiting, project management and in the last several years, I've been the head of HR for legal tax and IP. They also sent me to the US as an ex-pat and life kicked in. I've always had this idea of becoming a female entrepreneur, and also spending more time in Australia, being independent of my time and my work. In 2019, I had the opportunity to make that bold move and I did. It's a journey and here I am, and this is how I met you.

We share passions for different or similar things. I'm big on entrepreneurship and running a business. I love traveling and exploring the world. I love yoga as well and I saw on your bio that you're also becoming a yoga certified instructor as well.

It's funny how things come together. I did a yoga teacher training many years ago and I even taught a little bit but then, with a big job and three kids, I had to shift my priorities. I am already integrating mindfulness balancing approach into my coaching and my consulting work. When I was in the US, I want to get more out of the HR world. I was invited to a meeting of HR Business Partners that Josh Bersin hosted in Manhattan, IBM with Diane Gherson and other senior HR Business Partners for his Academy, when you put together content on what HR Business Partners' capabilities need to be. We blocked around that so that was a connection.

Josh Bersin is a huge name in the HR space and Founder of the Bersin Academy. He's been on the show. If you're an HR practitioner, a fan or if you haven't read that, make sure you dig back and read the episode. He also gave the opening keynote at our conference, the Talent Development Think Tank. We're planning the next one, which I'm excited about and we may have him involved again. I'm not sure, but the details are coming soon. It is cool and I love yoga. I'm glad that you are building that in. I practice every week, but I haven't gotten certified as an instructor there. Interestingly enough, I love facilitating workshops. I travel all over the world facilitating. I've never had a desire to become a yoga instructor. I'm happy to sit back and let somebody else tell me what to do in that regard. I don't know why.

You still need some goals for the rest of your life.

These are new challenges to tackle down the road.

One thing else I love, Diane Gherson from IBM. She's not that visible online. Hopefully, she will do that but hearing her, she's such an amazing CHRO. In those two hours that I was able to spend with her, I learned so much and I was inspired. I said, “This is the type of CHRO I would love to work for,” as another shout out for the audience.

Sometimes it is so easy to exceed expectations, it’s almost scary. Click To Tweet

HR Coach And Business Partner

I want to get into this topic of HR as a coach and business partner. We'll start the coaching piece because you worked a long time in HR for a large company. You've been an HR Business Partner, and you've also been in coaching for a long time. Maybe start with, how did you get into that? Where do you think a lot of HR practitioners, HR Business Partners miss out on opportunities in this space?

It happened naturally. When I started as a recruiter, I started on campus recordings. I went with senior leaders or a company to the business school in Switzerland and Germany, and I even did that for consultancy before joining BASF. I still got to spend time with business leaders. A lot of my HR colleagues were like, “We've never talked to an actual leader.” We are in the L&D space. Back then it wasn't called COE, but specialists for talent. They're like, “Cindy, tell me more about this.” I was like, “I couldn't imagine being in the Talent and HR space without knowing what leaders think.”

Having these conversations and you go there. You're at the convention and we have more time than in the usual corporate setting. That was what got me interested like, “How does that match with what we're doing in the backend?” There is controversy, which is needed to some extent. You have it in sales and marketing. You have a lot of it in other functions as well, but this is what got me going. I soon realized, coming from university and like, “I want to do concepts. I want to do strategies. I want to do the analysis.” Even hearing Josh Bersin, I was like, “You go deep,” but I had to realize, I'm more of a salesperson. I'm on the frontend person.

As soon I discovered the HR Business Partnering role, and it was many years ago when they started talking about that at my old company. I had a chance very early on with little experience to be in that space and to be surrounded in front of the best sitting in a room with ten leaders from middle management. Also, high senior people and I have to earn myself credibility. They don’t know what went in there and told them, “You have to listen to your new business partners.” This is how I tapped into this and it was so much fun along the way, but it was also hard. It takes a lot off of you. This is what I love to do and I did that for a long time.

The coaching thing, as an HR Business Partner, you do not coach per se. The ICF would not call that coaching because you have a mission from the company. You have certain goals where we had to cut headcount or budgeting. I also had to be directive in a sense. That was the learning for me in becoming an independent coach, taking that direction out of it. That's my hardest learning piece. What I work on with a mentor coach, taking my HR Business Partner backpack, which is pulling on me because I love giving advice. It comes naturally to me and often leaders to leave that offside and get into the listening mode. This is my journey.

One more thing that comes to my mind, but I also always did not like is the whole policing. This is a universal reputation in HR. I don't know too much in the talent space, probably a little bit as well, that we have this reputation of, “We're going to tell the leaders what to do and what they're not allowed to do.” In Germany, the works council is a big thing in multinationals because everything is regulated. In the US, you don't have the works council, but you have the unions. You have the risk of getting sued, getting a class action. I always wanted to work against this reputation and show the value that I can bring. Sometimes it was easy to exceed the expectations, but it was almost scary.

Tell me more about that when you say, “It was easy to exceed expectations.” Are these the expectations of the business on you as HR because the expectations are not high for what HR is able to do?

In a lot of places, they were like, “HR is only telling you what I cannot do. I'm not allowed to do where the risk is, but they don't help me to solve my problem.” I know that's not fair too. It's an unfair judgment and it's not true, but it's the reality I experienced in a lot of places with businesses because they like to have someone to blame when things aren't going their way. It's the reality that I have found we have to work with and we have to go in there and convince them, “I can help you. I want to solve your problem. I don't want to create ten more problems for you.”

Separating Yourself As An HRBP

Speaking of solving problems, you talked about coming as an HR Business Partner, getting that attention, respect and getting recognized. I think a lot of HR professionals and HRBPs may struggle with that because they've got the title business partner, but a lot of times, they're not seen as that. They're seen as an HR resource. How did you separate yourself? How did you get that attention and respect? What can other HRBPs or professionals learn from that?

What I tried to do is first, look at the problems they have and then start with a simple one. Often, the simple ones, they seem simple to me from a talent or HR perspective, where like, “Why haven't they figured this out?” For example, one leader leading 500 or even 5,000 employees and he has a bad relationship with his assistant. It's not working. His calendar is messed up. It's not clear who gets through and it’s been going on for years and the whole organization suffers from it. I could say, “This is not my job as an HR Business Partner. I'm in consulting and coaching space. It's not my job to fix this problem.” There's a service center out there for you. Maybe even if he's or she’s at a high level, they even have some support system for that, but for whatever reason, no one in the organization is looking at that problem.

21393495 - confused business man seeks a solution to the big labyrinth

HR Business Partnering: As an HR business partner, you don’t coach per se; you have to be directed towards certain goals of the company you are working with.

This is how I earned my reputation. I always looked at reality. I had to make sure that I stay within my space and not tap on other people's shoes. I tried to fix that problem. This is how I got my seat at the table and then slowly you work your way up. At the next meeting, people ask and they have a bigger problem. There’s not only that one person or that one systemic thing, but it's also more of an organizational issue where they're like, “Cindy, what do you think about this?” This is maybe one tip. Start with something small and don't ask. I didn't ask, “Should I do this for you?” I only saw whatever intrinsic motivation I had. I saw people suffering from this and the person suffering too and then creating these win-win situations. That's what drove me because in the end, when you go through the roughness of it, but suddenly it works and it's beautiful. That’s when everyone is relieved and says, “Finally, someone helped us.”

The whole thing reminds me of a while back. I had my friend, Susan Burnett, on the show. Susan is a former head of Talent.

I love Susan. I went to her workshop in New York.

Did you go to Designing Your Life For Women?

I went to that in Manhattan. That was one of the last things I did. It was amazing.

Susan was a longtime client of BTS, where I worked, and then she came to BTS. We worked together for a little bit. We got to know each other well, worked closely together, and I've kept in touch. She's running Designing Your Life for Women. It is based on the book, Designing Your Life, that her brother, Bill, wrote with a colleague at Stanford. Susan was on the show and we were talking about her experience working in large companies. I asked her a similar question and she said, “Some advice you gave to some younger HR professionals. There are times where Susan is to the point, hard-nosed.” She said, “If you want to be a true business partner, find a business problem and solve it, and then you can earn your place at the table.” That's what you're talking about as well. Don't sit around waiting for someone to tell you what to do, be intentional, take some action, find a real problem that is going to help the business, and then you'll get a lot more respect.

To be a true business partner, find a business problem and solve it. Then you can earn your place at the table. Click To Tweet

It sounds easy and that’s what Dave Ulrich has been saying. That's the genius idea of his concept and you're like, “Read it.” He's like, “Why is this hard? Why does someone have to write this down?” The reality I find is it’s hard in the day-to-day reality when you sit with these leaders. You hear about their problems, and then you go back from corporate HR, from the strategies that you're supposed to implement and you have that long list. You compare the two and you're doing that translation. It takes a lot. You need a strong team as well and not everyone is made for that. I had people, even in my team, they are like, “I don't want to take care of that. I want to do this. I wanted to do the corporate HR stuff. This is what I'm excited about. I don't want to solve the long-term disability piece or whatever there is.” Whatever is causing the business, not the win in the marketplace.

The business succeeds and gets rewarded on those key financials, those metrics, whatever it is. The more you can do to help the business solve those problems, to help the business achieve at the organizational goals, the more you are seen as a partner in the business versus that HR person who does compliance or whatever HR people do.

Even in the L&D space, there are exciting concepts out there. One thing was the conclusion that we were all aligned at that meeting with Josh Bersin, that you have to consider context and timing. There might come a time, you might have to wait a couple of years until that moment hits that one executive leadership meeting where you can be like, “I have an idea,” then you pull out the newest L&D strategy. That's what I tried to do. There was one legacy that I think I built. It's like a succession planning for the global intellectual property organization. That's what I love to do. I took some stuff from corporate HR and I thought, “How would they even listen to me? How would they do it?” With my team, we implement it, but it took almost two years until we got there. You have to have patience and then hit hard and fast. When they want it, they want it now. That's the other thing.

Becoming A Better Coach

When I asked you about strengths, areas of expertise, you put down HR as a coach. I'm curious to know more about that. What did you mean by that? How can HR be a better coach for the business?

I worked with levels 2, 3 and 4 of this multinational. In my experience, the higher you get as an executive in a huge big company, the lonelier you get. The less you know who you can trust and it sounds awful because it's exactly the opposite of what everyone says we want. You want to trust in a company, you want high engagement, you want less control but often, it's hard in reality. Having someone establishing a talent leader or a strong HR Business Partner that can serve as that buffer, where the executive knows, “I can show myself. I'm not going to get judged.” That's the number one thing for me. Be nonjudgmental. The policing is always a scale. This was hard for me too because I have a north star in me, and it’s holding that back first and then reflecting on, “When do I bring that out? When do I tell and say, ‘I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to do?’ That's hard.”

I love what you said about executives. The higher up they go, they often need that ear or coach and it gets lonelier as executives move up. I've heard this, I've discovered this, I've seen this. The higher you go, the more people become more deferential and intimidated and the less likely you are to get feedback or coaching from anybody in the organization. It's great to have that trusted confidant, that HR Business Partner who can be a true partner and coach for you. Cindy, thinking about your career, I'm curious, as you've gone through your corporate career and then the move that you have made, what are you most proud of? What's been your biggest success in your career so far?

HR Business Partnering: Look at the problems they have and start with a simple one.

There are two different things. What I'm most proud of is making that decision. I've been thinking about making the decision to leave my company, doing my own business, and moving to Australia in order to be in control of my time and my location, and in order to serve the wider community of leaders. That is what I love to do. I love to coach leaders, high-potentials and anyone who wants to grow outside that comfort zone.

You were talking about your move to Australia to become an independent business leader and entrepreneur is one of your successes.

Also, making that decision, living this transition with my kids. As a woman, I tried to make this decision. I'll need the financial security and say, “I'm going to try something else.” I'd thought about this for a long time. I've moved up to a level in the company where I realized I love HR Business Partnering, but I could do another HR Business Partner role. Beyond that, I didn't want to become a senior executive in the HR space. That wasn't my aspiration. I wanted to work with actual people and this is what I am figuring out. This is also my biggest accomplishment in the organization that I left is making an impact on people's lives. I saw from the succession planning, where you have everything on paper, it's just names, jobs and strategies. Where does the organization go? Seeing that fall into place years later, seeing that name and that person with a smile after they received the promotion and the communication and seeing people grow. I had to realize this is what drives me, seeing it in reality and not only on paper.

Both of those things are great. You realized at the end of the day, money and titles come and go, but it's the impact that affects your legacy and what you leave behind both as a business leader and as a parent as well. The opportunities are huge.

I find that harder.

Making The Move: The Opportunities And Challenges

I want to ask one more question about making that move to become an independent coach and consultant because I have built a large network in the talent development, HR, L&D space and I find around a lot of practitioners out there who are either doing some things on the side or dream of maybe doing their own thing one day. I find it's quite common in this space. How did you make that decision and what was working in your favor? What challenges have you been working on overcoming? I know it's still a relatively new move.

The higher you get as an executive in a big company, the lonelier you get. Click To Tweet

It's relatively new on one side, but it's working for me for quite some time without knowing me unconsciously. This is maybe my advice to people. Don't lock yourself into your organization. Try and it's hard because these big corporations suck you in. This is their strength too, but as an HR in the L&D space, that's a risk because when I finally made that decision, I started going out more. That's when all the amazing things happened when I met Josh Bersin, Diane Gherson and when I went to the workshop with Dave Ulrich. I hadn't done that in the two years in the US before. This is the number one thing I’ll give them as a piece of advice. Also with Susan Burnett, with Designing Your Life for Women thing, it's the prototyping. Don't wait until something happens. Tap into that space and make those little tiny moves. Try out stuff. Talk to people.

Networking sounds like an old thing, but reach out to people and ask for help. Ask for advice and then soon, someone will give you something back in this whole reciprocity. The one thing I did, and I want to name that here as well that would help me. I founded Working Out Loud Circle. I don't know if you've heard of the method by John Stepper. You should connect with him. I found him also online years ago and he wrote this book called Working Out Loud. It is about showing vulnerability, putting your work out there in collaboration with others and reciprocity, giving and taking. I probably framed that wrong, but for me, that was what it was about. I was interested in him because he had worked for Deutsche Bank for 30 years in Manhattan. Restructurings happened 2 or 3 times. After the first time, he didn't see it coming and he was like, “I have to take my career in my own hands. I have to start building something.” He built his whole method and idea while he was still working at Deutsche Bank. He implemented it there as well. He had their support and tried the stuff. I think then after a while, he made a decision to bring this to a broader audience.

It inspired me. An American working for a German company for so long. I know people from Deutsche Bank. It's even a bigger ship than a company I worked for. Having this agile method implementing in the company and this is a question I asked myself a lot, “What do I want in this organization?” Not what everyone else wants like getting the next promotion and being an ex-pat, getting the bigger office and the bigger title. It sounds easy, but it took years to figure this out and a lot of trying along the way of different things. When I put my head around it and my energy and my time, and there's always time. Even if you have a big corporate job, you can always find time for that. This is when the magic happens. Everything fell into place and then taking the decision was the easiest thing. It was building up towards this. It took more energy, more trying and more iteration.

Lessons From Failures And Mistakes

At some point, you’ve got to take some action and try stuff. Take a chance and see what happens and then leverage all those things. I love all the stuff that you mentioned. I'm a big fan of building the network and prototyping. People are always amazed by all the things that I do and it's because I'm always trying stuff, learning from it and then moving on to the next thing. It's the essence of design thinking, innovation, prototyping, all that stuff and not being too worried about the failure by seeing what works. I like that. Working Out Loud by John Stepper, I wasn't familiar with that. What's been your biggest failure or mistake and what have you learned from it?

I think about this a lot during this transition. It was like, “What went well?" I get this gutsy feeling about it. I think my biggest failure was leading a team. Starting as a leader, I felt like I'm a doctor who is herself a bad patient. This is how I felt when a couple of years ago, I had my first team. I had been telling leaders for years, how to lead their teams. I had all this theory in place and then suddenly, I have to lead a team where not everyone is like, “I want to work for you. You're the best.” This is how I started. At first, I had people who didn't need much. That's why it was easy for me to be a good leader. They were smooth, smart, engaged and high performing. Things shifted a little bit and the context got more challenging, which it always does with big companies. I realized, “I don't have this covered. I need help.”

It was embarrassing in the beginning but reflecting that, I learned so much from it about myself, about setting boundaries. I had a coach. This is when I got an executive coach from my company. That was amazing. I learned that it is hard holding authority, which in a traditional multinational, the authority is still important. Even if you're not yourself, a person who values that, which I don't. That was a problem. I faced a lot of problems because of that and acknowledging that helped me so much not only as an HR Business Partner but also as a coach to understand these are strengths that leaders have with their employees. That was the biggest learning.

HR Business Partnering: The more you can do to help business partners solve their problems, the more you will be seen as a partner.

I can relate to that. Teaching this stuff and then not even practicing it or doing it the right way. I teach and run leadership workshops all the time. I had an assistant all of 2019, and I know I didn't coach or give her enough feedback as I should have. I didn't communicate enough. I made plenty of mistakes along the way as well. I'm like, “What am I doing? I teach this stuff. I should be better at this.” It's easier to help other people than to do it yourself. It doesn't mean it's not still a lot of work and everything, it all comes down to prioritization and how are you spending your time for that stuff.

That brings me to one more thing when people ask, “What should I do before I leave a company and become independent?” This is what you should do. Gain as many experiences in companies, corporations and big organizations. These experiences will help you be a better coach. We've discussed this a lot in the coaching industry. Could just graduate become a coach? There's such a big need for coaches, but I strongly believe, without me having worked twelve years with all these frustrations, ups and downs, and also successes. I had great times there and then the year before and the consultancy. Without that experience, I wouldn't be where I am and it wouldn't be as easy for me. I think this is a big one.

L&D Trends

Thinking back to your time in HR and even the work you're doing in the lens of talent development, learning and development, are there any trends that you're following that you think are making an impact on L&D?

I'm following Josh Bersin’s work closely. I also loved everything around driving your own career, empowerment, engagement and how that could look like from a practical standpoint. I am following Working Out Loud a lot. It's big in Germany. That's what I found so odd. John goes a lot to Germany, but there is the whole empowerment idea that kicks in. I love Brené Brown. She's been, for me, mind-blowing seeing her on Netflix. I only came across her years ago, or even at the time, where I was forming my thoughts and my transition. I don't know why she's not in the whole German market. She's not known at all. Maybe it's because the translations are bad. They sounded awful and touchy-feely, spiritual even.

It’s like, “What is this vulnerability? We don't need this.”

There's not even a good word for it in German. It’s like shame. With our history, we don't like shame at all.

You don’t talk about feelings.

We're engineers and we like all that stuff. This was, in any sense, discovering that I'm a creative person, discovering how I want to be as a parent. I want to be a leader, not that I’m there at all. It's more desperation as well, but this is a big inspiration for me.

I love Brené Brown. She’s amazing. There's stuff you mentioned that are good about Josh. I'm big on this idea of driving your career and career empowerment. I love it. I'm writing a book about this topic, to help people take ownership of their careers. It's called Own Your Career, Own Your Life. I also run a program called AccelerateME, created by one of my colleagues named, Christine DiDonato, who was on this show a long time back. She's got a fantastic program we run to help early-career professionals take more ownership of their career and get in the driver's seat. The need is going up more and more.

Advice From The Pro

I hear from many clients and contacts who tell me that the attrition rate of the 2 to 3-year mark is going through the roof because people don't hang on. They don't stick through and get in that driver's seat. They're waiting for someone else to tell them what to do. They don't get it and they look for a job and go somewhere else. I think that's a growing trend, for sure. Last question for you, Cindy. For anyone, in L&D or HR, who are looking to accelerate their career, gets in the driver's seat, take control and be more successful or move up, what's one more piece of advice you would give?

One very concrete thing that helped me in, I got that from Susan Burnett, from her workshop, that Designing Your Life, it's in the book as well. I started to observe myself, which work I'm enjoying. What brings me joy? Write that down. I'm more of a creative and I love the flow. I'm not a structured person always. I can be, but it's not what I love to do. I had this book and randomly I would jot down. I had an amazing phone conversation. A leader called me and asked me, “What do you think about this? I need to reorganize that team.” He wasn't even in my space. He said, “I need a second. I need to brainstorm.” I had this 45-minute conversation. After that, I was like, “This is what I love to do. I don't care if it's my job. I don't care if I get a promotion for this or whatever if anyone sees this.”

Find these moments for yourself. In Japan, they call it ikigai. Find that thing where you're talented in, that you love and that the world needs. It's not the one thing and that one calling that you have. It's the actual task. Find that and then try to create something around it. That's the other amazing thing in big organizations because people are often scared. Everyone's trying to be in their safe place. It's the opposite of vulnerability. This is what's Brené talked about that everyone is on the arena seats. No one is in the arena and everyone's waiting for the first person to show themselves. The amazing thing that happens is you can get in the arena. You can create your own arena. That's what I've mastered doing. Thinking about, “What do I want to do in this company?” I thought, “I want to become an HR Business Partner.” Somehow it worked. I said, “I want to go abroad,” because my husband is Australian.

I looked at all the BASF sites and I thought, “The only place in the world where BASF has an office that I could get my husband to come with me and my kids is New Jersey, near Manhattan because he's a jazz musician.” I always dreamed of it. I thought, “How would this be?” A couple of years later, I ended up there. I think knowing what you love, the tasks you love, and then putting your attention towards it and believing in it yourself. If you had done believe in it, then how can others believe in this? It sounds easy, but I know it's hard. If you need help with this, if you want to work with someone, if you're free to reach out, but this is all the techs that anyone can do this. You don't need a special talent to own your life. I am encouraging everybody to do that.

I'm big on that. Take ownership of your career and your life and think about what you want to do and take action towards that. Many people are drifting and waiting for someone else. I am a fan of the book, Designing Your Life. I remember doing that exercise. I read that book. I've recommended it to people, especially those who are looking for new jobs. If that's something you're interested in, Susan Burnett runs those workshops and you went through it. She's awesome. You offered to help anybody who wants to have those conversations, Cindy. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they want to reach out?

On my website, there are my contact details and I'll offer a free sample coaching session to get the feel of what does the future look like, “How could I help you towards that future?” I design a coaching process around the needs of anyone interested. This is something that I took from the US, which I love. If you get stuck with the same thing for years and you struggle with the same stuff, you need to change something. You need an intervention. That's what I love in the US. You guys are like, “Why should I not do it? I take this. I do this.” Seek help and it can be anything.

Cindy, this is fantastic. It's been a great conversation. Thanks for coming on and joining us all the way from Australia and sharing your experience and wisdom with us. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thank you, Andy. That was fun.

Take care.

Bye.

• Cindy Hurley-Leister
• Josh Bersin
• Diane Gherson
• Episode – Josh Bersin’s episode
• Talent Development Think Tank
• Susan Burnett – previous episode
• Designing Your Life For Women
• Designing Your Life
• Dave Ulrich
• Working Out Loud Circle
• Working Out Loud
• Christine DiDonato – previous episode