Inclusive and nurturing talent development philosophy

Inclusive and nurturing talent development philosophy with Kristen Robinson

Insights on HR leadership, diversity and inclusion, and internal talent development

I'm excited to be joined by Kristen Robinson, who is the Chief People Officer of Splunk. Kristen, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Andy.

It’s great to have you on. You and I have already had a couple of interesting and wonderful conversations leading up to this about everything going on in the world and your philosophy and approach to HR and talent development. Why it's important to weave diversity and inclusion into all of that, which has become an incredibly relevant topic. I can't wait to get into that. Maybe let's start with a broader philosophy. What's your general philosophy or approach to talent development?

It probably is best represented by my favorite bumper sticker. It says, “Don't believe everything you think.” Ponder that for a while. It's relevant for personal development. We can always come to the world. We come to the table, we come to the issue with beliefs and views, things we think we know, yet we make up a lot of stuff in our mind as well. Whether it's related to our own growth and development or how we approach growth and development in the organization, what's best at a specific moment. To me, I followed that mantra all the time. It tests my point of view so I can think about whether or not I need to shift my point of view. It also has me embrace new and innovative ways to approach my own growth and the development of people in the organization.

What you're saying is that we learn a lot over time from experiences from others. We all have a set of experiences that inform how we operate, how we live, and how we work. Also, that we should often be challenging that and looking at other points of view or perspectives before diving into something? Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely. If we didn’t, we would be rendered irrelevant quickly. There are two probably great examples. One is in many of our corporations, we still have management practices, and some of us, people practices that are based on 1950s management theory about rating people, grading people, etc. The new neuroscience says that doesn't necessarily work based on the way the brain operates. Science tells us better. Shame on us if we don't use that new knowledge and continue with what's been done for decades. The other example takes this era of a global pandemic. I joined Splunk in late January 2020 and within three days, I was on the phone with our Asia leaders figuring out how do we deal with this? There was no playbook for any of us.

We thought we knew some things on day one, week one, month one. All of those things have changed because we've got some experience, we've got some research, we've got some science. For myself, in this example, I’m taking the lead at Splunk to make decisions for the health and safety of 6,000 employees around the world. If I didn't have a growth mindset, if I didn't question or challenge my points of view about things, I wouldn't have been able to evolve my thinking, learn and make good decisions over the weeks that we've been in this place. In fact, every week I get a strategic outlook report from the team and what we knew last week is different than what we know this week. We have to keep evolving and not believe everything we think.

We can always learn. We can always develop new skills. Click To Tweet

The Self-Aware Leader

The COVID-19 global pandemic is a great example of something that is uncharted waters, uncharted territory. There has never been something like this before. There's no playbook. You mentioned the importance of having a growth mindset, something I'm a big fan of. Maybe for the couple people in the audience that aren't as familiar, what do you mean by that? Why is that important in the world of HR and talent development?

Many people know the work of Carol Dweck at Stanford, and she talks about believing that we can always develop. We can always learn. We can always grab new skills. We can exercise and get new muscle in doing anything. That's opposed to a fixed mindset, which means we're born with a brain, we're born with potential that's fixed and can't be changed, therefore, why bother getting better? In the company, if you take the point of view that we all have the potential to grow and develop, then it opens up all kinds of avenues for helping people be their best and be as successful as they can be at your company. If not there, maybe some other place.

Reading the book, Mindset, by Dr. Carol Dweck made a big impact on me not only in how I operate in the world of talent development, how I run my business and how I operate as a parent as well. It has been impactful for me. When we talked before, you also talked about your philosophy on leadership and the importance of self-awareness, and I'm a big fan of that as well. We're aligned on this, but maybe you could share a little bit more about why this is important. It ties into this growth mindset and always challenging your beliefs as you become a more senior more experienced that thing to be a more successful leader, whether it's in HR already anywhere.

There's this distinction between doing and being as anyone, but especially as a leader. Leaders oftentimes are very goal-oriented. They drive ambitious agendas, they go fast. They like to move, like activity and like to go, always moving. That can serve people and an organization well but what about everything underneath the doing? What about the being, what about knowing who you are, and what you stand for, to be open to people questioning that or putting you on the spot? I’ve had a number of examples over the course of my career for sure. Even in the last weeks of people giving me feedback, I love feedback. Even though it's hard to take sometimes, it's a gift, but maybe feeling inside my head a little bit defensive at first because I thought, “They're wrong.”

After a little while, thinking more about it, reflecting it and saying, “I can see how they see that. I can see how I am being a way that maybe isn't exactly like my head thinks I am.” Therefore, you have this moment of insight into self-awareness that can help you then be better as a person to grow and develop yourself. It's hard because we don't watch ourselves. That's the beauty of creating an environment where people are generous and giving feedback and where coaching sometimes and mentoring can be valuable because you don't always see yourself in the way the world sees you.

People often don't take the time to step back and analyze themselves and how they're reacting and how they perceive other people reacting to the way they're operating. I’ve also heard and noticed that the more senior you get in corporate jobs, the less feedback you get. People are less likely to maybe challenge you or be willing to give that feedback. What are some things you've done or seen to help not only yourself but maybe allow senior leaders to get the feedback they need to improve?

You have to for it. One of my favorite people is David Rock, who’s the CEO and Founder of the NeuroLeadership Institute. His whole reason for being is to take neuroscience and apply it to practices at work. One of the things that I learned from them is that the best way to create a culture of giving feedback is to create a culture of asking for feedback. By asking for feedback, you prep your brain to receive maybe critical feedback and you're more open to it. I’ve tried to practice that. It's hard. It's a habit. After I present to a group of interns, I’ll ask the team who organized it. “Thank you for letting me come and talk to our interns. Please tell me, what did you think I did well in that forum? What could I do better the next time?” When you ask for it, then people are more willing to give it to you, especially if you're asking for things that you could do better. That's something that I’ve learned and I'm trying to always better my muscle at doing that. I also think that it's important for leaders because by virtue of the hierarchy in an organization, people tend to want to please. As a leader, there is nothing more detrimental to me than to have people agree with everything you say and to not disagree with you. I had an experience early in my career where I saw the benefit of disagreeing with a leader.

Talent Development Philosophy: The best way to create a culture of giving feedback is to create a culture of asking for feedback.

It probably rewired me maybe a little bit. I was always questioning authority anyway from a young age. I remember as a young, early in career individual contributor, being in a meeting, reviewing some topics with the person who was effectively the chief HR officer of that group in a large technology company. She happened to say something about the topic. I said, “I disagree with you. I think this.” You could see her eyes were popping out thinking like, “Who is this young woman to voice an opinion?” I also saw her then respect me even more because I was willing to share my point of view and not so much my expertise, but my knowledge and insight on that particular topic.

I always encourage my team. The biggest disservice that you can give us in a partnership or as a team is to not disagree with me. I’ve come as a leader and this was a learned skill. I am tolerant. I have a high tolerance for provocation, intellectual disagreement and intellectual debate. That's been learned. It's uncomfortable for sure when you have divergent opinions. I will tell you, honestly, I have a low tolerance when things get personal and snarky. I’ll retreat from something like that. I definitely lean into different kinds of opinions and points of view that I can't possibly have because of my own experience.

That's how we get better and we remove our self-awareness and it’s awesome to be able to offer that feedback right away to be looking for it. You've had an interesting career, Kristen, with having senior HR roles and companies like HP Agilent, Verigy, Yahoo and Pandora before getting to Splunk. I'm curious, what are a couple of important experiences you've gone through or things you took away that inform your approach to HR and talent development now?

You call it interesting, I call it a checkered past. I’ve been honored and privileged to early on probably fall into those than being deliberate. I’ve worked in multiple functions. I started out my career as a CPA. I was good at math. People always think about accounting and people on the two ends of the spectrum. I worked in accounting. I worked in finance. I dabbled in recruiting a little bit. I led a division HR team, but then I went into product marketing, broader marketing. Eventually, I led a new technology venture within a larger tech company. I had no business doing it because I am not an engineer. I'm technically unsavvy when it comes to those kinds of things. My important differentiation as a leader is I'm a strong business leader.

I’ve got a lot of business acumen and I have grown to be a decent leader. Other people can be great technologists, but those other things I can add value to. Those things have helped me tremendously leading a people organization because I’ve lived a day in the life of my client’s functions. I’ve been a people manager. I’ve been a leader in a different function. I’ve tried to get a new business off the ground. That similarity of experiences is helpful. The other thing I would say there is not a day that I don't use my finance background in HR. While I'm never going to go spar with the CFO on accounting standards, I understand them and I understand and can help make business decisions based on their impact on the P&L. That and marketing. I probably use marketing more in the people function than I do even finance. It's all about who's my audience? Who are my clients? How do I segment their needs? How do I target them? What is my key messaging? It's all about communication. I use a lot of marketing concepts in how I think of running a services business or a people organization inside a company.

I can see those being beneficial. I’ve had many conversations with people in HR and talent development over the years. One of the biggest challenges or things missing for a lot of people as an understanding of how the business works and the finance. For those that are reading or that you may be mentor who comes up from a traditional HR background, starting in HR and moving up through the ranks because they love the people. How do you suggest they go get that different perspective or better education on things like finance and marketing when they maybe didn't have an opportunity to work in those areas?

There are a lot of ways. One is I'm a big consumer of content. What are the sources that people are reading? I got turned on to Harvard Business Review early in my career. In those days, contrary to now, there weren't a lot of articles about people in leadership. It was about a hardcore business. There are different kinds of sources of business information that people can tap into. They're accessible these days and that can broaden your thinking. I also suggest shadowing people in the organization, sitting in the room, maybe observing. I spend time often in customer meetings and that's one of the benefits of the virtual environment. We do some executive business meetings with some of our top customers every quarter around the world.

Don't believe everything you think. Click To Tweet

I’ve been able to be a fly on the wall in those meetings and listen to what are the customers saying. For people in the HR space, you may not understand the technology. You may not understand the hardcore product attributes and functionality, but can you understand the end customer experience? That is much more easily understood and digested because often they have customers who have customers who are us and you can get a sense for ultimately the business based on how they're servicing their customers. That's another way that I encourage people

It’s important to go get those perspectives. I’ve always heard the advice of go out on customer, ride along, see how your people are interacting with customers, and go out in the field. You make an interesting point that it's now easier than ever because you can pop onto a Zoom call and join your salespeople and get their permission. You don't have to fly to whatever city, get in the car and spend an entire day. It could be a couple of hours and you can spend time with a lot of different people and see what they're working on.

Despite the fact that everyone is getting all impatient sheltering in place, and there are obviously significant negative impacts for people with this pandemic. We cannot say that, but there are also a lot of benefits to it like this virtual distributed work. I’ve had a lot of people ask, “What has it done for your culture? How do you maintain culture?” I think that there have been many positive aspects of culture because of this virtual fully distributed world where everyone can have a front-row seat. If you're remote, you're not watching 500 people in a room having a meeting or watching ten people having a meeting from the back row. Everyone's got that front row seat, which is positive.

Oftentimes, you'd hear the stories of most people are in the headquarters and those remote workers don't get as much face time or fair treatment and there's discrimination. Now almost everybody's got more of a level playing field. I'm curious, you mentioned you're overseeing HR. I get questions about culture and things like that. I agree with you that it's probably improved communication for a lot of organizations. People tell me that engagement is up. Productivity is up. You also mentioned or alluded to wellness and things like that. What do you think is the biggest challenge that your organization or organizations, in general, are facing with regards to COVID?

It is the mental health and wellbeing of people. Whether it's parents who were trying to homeschool their children. You're a parent 24/7 no matter what, but when you have daycare when schools are open, you get a reprieve. That emotional toll, some minoritized groups are being disproportionately impacted. I constantly look at our local county dashboard stats and they break it out by gender, by age, or by ethnicity. The numbers are staring us in the face that certain racial groups have higher death rates, higher case rates. Even if you are safe, you see the impact and the consequences for your family members or others in your community and it's difficult.

Luckily, I have a couple of kids who are out of the house and I haven't had to keep my two-year-old occupied while I'm on twelve hours of Zoom. People feel like they're failing everywhere. They feel like they're failing as a parent, they feel like they're failing as a worker, they feel like they're failing and keeping themselves healthy, maintaining your physical fitness or their eating routine. It's taking a toll. One other thing is it's not only on yourself. I’ve heard many parents of young children say that they are seeing their children regress from a developmental standpoint. Add that to your daily to-do list and the priorities that you have and the deliverables that you have at work, it's challenging for people.

From D&I To DEI

I’ve been through that myself with two young kids. I know a lot of other people who are going through it as well and it is a big challenge. You also mentioned how it impacts different cultures, different racial groups. One of the things I wanted to ask you about was the importance of D&I or DEI. I'm hearing it called many different things these days and how that needs to be integrated into everything we do now in HR and talent development. I know that's something you were big on before, but with the death of George Floyd and the ensuing Black Lives Matter Movement, things have become even more important than that realm. What's your philosophy on DEI and how that needs to be integrated into what we do?

Talent Development Philosophy: D&I shouldn’t be a separate initiative. It needs to be integrated into everything from the employee experience.

First off, let me say that I had the privilege early in my career of working at a great company that was ahead of its time. I was working on D&I initiatives in the 1990s. We were bringing in black authors to help our employees expand their point of view of things. We were bringing in Koran experts to talk about the Muslim community and what was happening after 9/11. It's been part of how I approach my people's work as well as my leadership as well, and quite frankly, myself as a human being for decades. I'm grateful for that. What is happening, unfortunately, is not surprising but it's even more important.

I have always said I don't want D&I being its own separate, siloed initiative. It does need to be integrated into everything from the employee experience. Hiring people, sourcing talent, how do you integrate it there? How do you integrate it into selection? How do you integrate it into the experience that someone has walking in the door? Do they feel like they belong? Do they see people like them? How do you develop them? Quite frankly, oftentimes development experiences, especially at higher levels, are based on access that you have. Who knows you and who do you know? To me, it's greatly important to have it be a component. Given that society hasn't made much progress and companies have not made much progress, it's important to have extra emphasis on it and not rely on the good intention of everyone to integrate it into everything. It needs to have its own strategy, funding and its own focus for it to be effective these days.

You mentioned when we talked before about it needing to have a tone strategy and also being the fourth pillar. We also talked about the need. Many organizations are taking the approach of, “We need to have a DEI department and chief diversity officer.” We're seeing that in most companies these days, but at the same time, it often ends up being there's the DEI training over there and we've got all these other things going on for leadership development and manager development. You made a comment to me before about the importance of it being integrated into everything you do. I wonder if you could talk more about that because I want to inspire other people to be thinking about that with their own approach to talent development.

It's interesting because what I’ve come to see with DEI leaders, and we changed our name from D&I to DEI because we wanted to focus also on equity, which is different than diversity and different than inclusion. I'm proud of us making that move, although we're not at all the first. What I’ve found what important for DEI leaders is that they drive action and results through others. Sometimes that's hard for people who want to own what may be thought of as a center of expertise and do their stuff and make the change from that center. You have to drive results through others, which means educating through others, which means creating visibility of the numbers, for example. It's driving change with the leaders who are in the organization and themselves, like what skill sets around diversity do they have and enabling them. Also working arm in arm with your HR colleagues in talent acquisition, in learning and development, in compensation and benefits. That collaboration, those influence skills are super important for the people who are in that part of the profession, and as DEI leaders because exactly that notion of it needs to be integrated. You have to educate and bring people along and then lead through them.

It's critical these days that it be built more into everything and be part of the conversation. There are some people in some organizations more progressive than others and many who are learning these things. If we don't keep having those conversations, then we're not going to make as much progress as we want to make. We've got to keep having those conversations and building into everything. I'm glad to hear that. For those who are maybe struggling to incorporate this more into everything they do in the organization to improve diversity equity and inclusion in their organization, I'm doing other interviews on this as well, but any other advice for how they can improve that? It sounds like you've got a long history with this and worked for a fairly progressive company. What else can people be doing if they're in the L&D world to improve DEI in their organizations?

It's a great question from an L&D standpoint. I would say measure a lot. Who are you targeting in your development experiences? Do you need to differentiate some of those experiences for different groups of people? We think nothing of creating a new manager forum or development experience and a mid-manager and the leadership. Understand maybe the unique needs that underrepresented groups have within the company, what barriers they may see and feel every day they come to work. I’ll tell you a story that after the racial justice issues that have mostly come to the forefront, we have been doing listening sessions at Splunk with all of our ERGs, our Employee Resource Groups. We started out with our black employee resource group because that was the issue at hand but quickly went to our pride, which is our LGBTQ+ community because June was Pride Month.

Many of the experiences that blacks were feeling or have faced were some of the same experiences that our LGBTQ community has experienced over the course of their lives. We didn't stop with our black employee group. We have nine ERGs. Pride, our Latinx community, veterans, disabled, neurodiversity women, etc. We have finished listening sessions with all of those groups. We tried to get a couple of executives from the top team to attend those. I attended almost all of them. I like to think that I'm pretty facile with these topics. I had these hard conversations throughout my career on a personal level, as well as in the corporation. I will tell you, I got insights and a-ha moments in every single one that I attended and they were different.

As a leader, there is nothing more detrimental than having people agree with everything you say. Click To Tweet

We like to think of these groups as homogenous, but they're not in so many ways. Some groups are more homogenous than others in terms of their life experiences and their history. It reinforced to me that every single person employee in our company is unique. They come to the table with their own unique background, experience, and needs. We have to think about how do we develop in some way, shape, or form everyone to the exclusion of no one. I would encourage L&D orgs and others managers to think about how you connect with each individual person and develop them based on their own needs.

How do we develop everyone to the exclusion of no one? I like that.

I do have to be honest. I can't take credit for that. That was a 1990s era diversity training that I took at HP where the instructor came and he kept saying that mantra. Develop everyone to the exclusion of no one. We talked about what are the ways that we exclude people? What's our exclusionary activity inside the company, which may prevent certain people? It's a phrase that has stuck with me and it represents the individualism that everyone brings to the company.

Kristen, what has been your biggest accomplishment or proudest moment in your career so far?

It's probably the aggregate of many things over the course of my career. A few years back when I went back into the HR space from being in other functions, I was being deliberate about that move because I thought I could be more influential and impactful in HR and any other function. It’s a surprise to many people, especially the people in those other functions. I realized that I come into a company wanting to help people, teams, and organizations be extraordinary. I think about the collective work that I’ve done over time where I made a little impact on a person I helped the business think about what's most important. I would say maybe the culmination is making sure that we are deliberately creating a culture in a way that supports business success and personal success. I know that's maybe general and vague, but it's literally 1,000 things in service of that mission is to help people and companies be extraordinary.

With a growth mindset, we know we can always learn from mistakes. What's been one of your bigger mistakes or failures in your career? What did you learn from it?

When I was leading the new venture and during the dot-com bust, we canceled. It was one of those high risk, potentially high return ventures. That's very tangible. I felt a failure. I took it personally. It wasn’t the dot-com bust because I felt like I could have made it better advocated for it more, but that's a business moment. I would say I have gotten feedback after I had gotten feedback several years ago after I had gotten the same feedback that I could be more accessible. Part of me, my first reaction is you should see my calendar. There's no way I can be more accessible and I'm nice. I like to get to know people and chit chat. I do fill myself with ambitious agendas for sure. I find that as a leader, people want to access it. You have unique value to add people that if you fill yourself up with twelve hours of Zoom, with fourteen hours of stuff to do on your calendar, you don't leave the space for your value to get to other people the way it could uniquely get to them. That's something that has been momentary failures, but now it's a theme for me and it’s something that I have to constantly work on and being intentional about.

Talent Development Philosophy: Think less about buying or acquiring talent and more about building a talent marketplace, a talent ecosystem, where people feel like they can build their career.

Internal Talent Marketplace

Sometimes you get feedback on those things and you find you're not changing it and you think, “Maybe I need to do something else.” That's one of those things you want to improve and be more accessible to your team. Kristen, what's a trend in the learning and development world that you are following closely these days or paying attention to?

One thing that is starting to pop up on the horizon more and more is this notion of an internal talent marketplace. Let's face it. There are not enough people in the world to do what all of us companies want to do. The skilled talent around the world. The supply and demand are off and it will continue to be off. How do we create career development opportunities within the company and transparency so that people can figure out their own career paths inside the company versus outside the company? We always hear that aside from your manager, the number one reason why people leave a company is for career opportunities somewhere else. I’ve seen that many people leave because they saw that external career opportunity and they didn't even explore the internal opportunities. There were opportunities inside.

I want us to think less about buying talent or acquiring, hiring talent and more about building a talent marketplace, a talent ecosystem where people feel like they can maybe not spend their whole career in one place, which I would argue that's not even healthy to do or desirable. To spend more time in your company, doing a diversity of things that makes you better at what you do. I would love to see L&D people think more about this how do we build career opportunity and an ecosystem. The thing is you can't do that by figuring out the career path for everyone. How many times have we gone down and said, “We need to figure out what is the career path for someone in HR or someone in finance,” or maybe even narrower?

What if it's not defined? People can move around.

I will argue that if you have 6,000 employees in your organization, you're going to have 6,000 career paths. You can't map it out for everyone. What you can do is you can enable individuals and create an environment for that to happen. I'm curious. I don't know what the answers are. A lot of companies have had a good career progression for their employees for decades. In this modern-day and age, it looks different than it did in the past and we need to figure out how to do that.

It's changing. It's not a linear up a ladder. Are you going to be moving around? Especially if you want to get different types of experiences like you've had in your career with marketing and finance, along with HR. A lot of people come from sales and go to different places. If you want to be able to get those different types of experiences, try different things. I also think, and I'm curious what your perspective on this too is with creating that talent market, do we also move to a little bit more of a project-based type economy or gig economy within organizations? It's not choose this role and stick with this and then go to that role, but you can work on different projects and get experience doing different things.

When this whole notion of a gig economy came up and gig workers of a number of years ago, I was thinking, “How do we create like a gig economy inside. It's maybe good for project-based, it's might be good for people who want a flexible schedule for all the positives that people talk about, the external gig economy, having that autonomy, flexibility, part-time, etc. Why not inside the company?” We've been talking for the last few years, given the pace of change and innovation, groups of people with fungible skillsets can move around. We've been stuck in thinking about job titles or job descriptions and not peeling it back to think about what are the underlying skillsets that those people bring to the table? Why can't an events person in marketing come over to HR and do some things around employee experience for an employee comes. I’ve been encouraging people as I mentor younger people over the years like, “Don't get bogged down in a job title because pull up the hood and think about what are the skillsets that are flexible and can be transported to different parts of the organization?”

I'm glad you mentioned that because I believe strongly in that. I'm working on a book in the career development space. I was sitting down with my wife. She's helping me edit the book. She was like, “Explain this section to me on the future of work and what you're saying here.” What I talked about was exactly what you're talking about. You're validating everything that I'm writing about my books. I appreciate that. Now we need to make sure I go explain it a little bit better because she said that I needed to improve that, but that's why she's my editor. Feedback is a gift. Speaking of books, Kristen, given that mine's not out yet, do you have a book that you recommend or that's been made a good impact on you and your career especially in HR or whatever book you've been reading?

Think less about talent acquisition and more about building an internal talent marketplace. Click To Tweet

I have a short-term memory. I'm looking at my phone because I have a lot of books. I toggle between paper and digital. Some of the best books I’ve read have been nonfiction. I used to only like fiction because it was my escape from the real world. It helped me sleep at night. Fiction that helped me understand the experiences of other people. For a while, a few years back, I was reading some books about people in the military and their experiences in the military. I'm not up to speed on that but it was fascinating to me to hear that. I’ve always read fiction and now I'm reading more nonfiction on the experience of black people and immigrants. Maybe I can send you some titles that have been moving for me.

Last question for you, Kristen. For anybody working in HR who is looking to accelerate their career success, what's one more piece of advice you would give?

I would highly recommend that rotate within HR because a lot of people want to know like, “How do I get to be in that top spot?” They've always been an HR business partner or they've always been an L&D. My role, that top spot, I think of as a general manager of a services business. While I don't have to be a deep expert in any of the areas, it helps to have a couple of deep areas, but your understanding of all of it and how it's integrated, there's no substitute for living a day in the life of the different functions. I would highly recommend that. One of the things that had me move to different things is somehow I had the courage and the guts to take the risk of doing new jobs that I had no idea how to do. People pulled me or they pushed me into jobs like that. It was scary, but I realized, “I can figure things out. I know how to be in an unknown situation and problem solve and figure it out,” mostly and especially by asking other people to help me figure it out. If you can do that, then go for some job that you may have a couple of skills, but go try it out and ask your posse and the village to help you do that.

Get that different experience, try it out. It jives what we were saying about the career marketplace. Kristen, this has been awesome. I’ve learned so much from you. We've covered a lot of ground, so thank you for coming and spending time with us on the show.

I appreciate it. Thank you, Andy, for all the work you're doing. You're provoking a lot of different thinking on things and moving the profession forward. That's awesome to see.

Thank you. Take care.

Bye.

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